John Menadue, Editor-in-Chief of Pearls and Irritations, interviews Dr Mike Gilligan on the challenge of building a self-reliant Australian defence force, dealing with a rapacious America intent on its own interests, avoiding a US-proxy war with China, and the loss of Australian sovereignty under the 2014 Force Posture Agreement (FPA).

Intro and outro music is Orbiting A Distant Planet by Quantum Jazz.